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October 23rd, 2008


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10:01 pm - Porn...again, wanna write an antiporn paper together?, and a couple updates
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/features/her-first-orgy-i-couldnt-face-it-680502.html

I want to see that doc. Max Hardcore should have also been jailed for rape, not just the content of his porn.


http://maggiehaysagainstporn.blogspot.com/2008/09/culture-of-patriarchists-hates-women.html

fantastic essay/rant maggie!


http://www.thisisnotaninvitationtorapeme.co.uk/home/

Rape Crisis Scotland campaign


http://www.voicesmatter.org/

site for women who have survived prostitution.


http://www.genderberg.com/docs/Sbergfinal.mp3

via Maggie's antipornography site, SM Berg. Now I know what she sounds like! :P


http://www.mediaed.org/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=223&template=PDGCommTemplates/HTN/Item_Preview.html

for people who are under the delusion that porn is this fringe industry, that it's easy to escape, etc.


to bridge the two subjects:
does anyone want to write a rebuttal of pro-porn arguments, eg those brought up in response to the price of pleasure, with me? i have some people in mind, including allecto, maggie hays, cruelbitch...


I wanna say something about physical trauma: the damage done physically has little to do with consent to the act(s). Meaning, a cut, burn, whip lash, etc does the same damage to the body whether with or without consent. (Knowledge that it will happen does mitigate the damage to some degree, eg because one can "steel oneself" for it.) Trauma done to the body is handled by the body in much the same way, whether consensual or not, eg endorphins, adrenaline, pain, etc. I think useful parallels can be drawn between the physical trauma done in bdsm, and self-harm, eating disorders, etc. The body responds the exact same ways to starvation, whether it's from famine/no access to food, self-imposed, or done by another as part of bdsm (eg in dungeon "play," 24/7 d/s relationships). Wounds go through the same process of happening, healing, etc. whether done by the self, done by another, consensually, or nonconsensually. Mentally, it is processed differently, to be sure. But the concrete HARM inflicted on the body is the same.


Now for, me!

Fuck! On the weekend a pipe broke in my room, resulting in mucho water. Needless to say, things got wet and blechy. It was mainly notebooks, clothes, carpet... :(

And I'm VP of Journalists for Human Rights - Laurier Chapter now :D

Busy wee bee, I am.
Current Mood: fullgotta pee :P
Current Music: Manics/SM Berg

(96 comments | Leave a comment)

Comments:


From:kk0isonlymyname
Date:October 24th, 2008 08:07 pm (UTC)
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Nice links.

I might be able to help you with the rebuttal.
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From:demonista
Date:October 24th, 2008 08:15 pm (UTC)
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:D i aims to please :P

Yay to you (possibly) helping! (Not that I think the film was perfect, but 80% of the stuff that's being said against it is crap.)
From:maggie_hays
Date:October 25th, 2008 12:07 am (UTC)

Hey Demonista :)

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How're you doing? Good to see you posting again.

Max Hardcore should have also been jailed for rape, not just the content of his porn.

Max Hardcore is a torturer and a rapist. What a scumbag! He should have gotten imprisoned for life, not just 4 years. I hate him for all the unbearable pain he has inflicted on so many women and girls. I can't help seeing Max Hardcore as trying to be a new "Marquis de Sade" of some sort.

fantastic essay/rant maggie!

Thank you so much. I'm glad you liked it. You're always so supportive. :) Thanks for posting the link.

Rape Crisis Scotland campaign

Yeah, this is a great site; I found it on your blog and then linked it to my blogroll. I'll need to bring up the "This is Not an Invitation to Rape Me" campaign in a future blog post.

site for women who have survived prostitution.

Yeah, I already posted about that one.

via Maggie's antipornography site, SM Berg. Now I know what she sounds like! :P

Yeah, I linked to it somewhere on my againstpornography.org site. Sam Berg is great. I met her in real life. She's a real nice person.

does anyone want to write a rebuttal of pro-porn arguments, eg those brought up in response to the price of pleasure, with me? i have some people in mind, including allecto, maggie hays

I would love too, though I'm being real busy with homework for college just now. I could try. Would you like us two to write it together, via email or we could work on an idea for a post via Gmail chat sometime, maybe? What do you think?

I don't know if Allecto would have enough time to help. In an email, she told me she was being very busy at the moment (you might have to ask her this via email just to make sure she gets the message, maybe?- her email address is on her blog, btw).

I posted a link to Media Education Foundation's Price of Pleasure on my blog, just like you have.

the damage done physically has little to do with consent to the act(s). Meaning, a cut, burn, whip lash, etc does the same damage to the body whether with or without consent.

That's right. Have you had a look at the Prostitution Research & Education website recently? Melissa Farley updated it last summer, I believe.

(Knowledge that it will happen does mitigate the damage to some degree, eg because one can "steel oneself" for it.) Trauma done to the body is handled by the body in much the same way, whether consensual or not, eg endorphins, adrenaline, pain, etc. I think useful parallels can be drawn between the physical trauma done in bdsm, and self-harm, eating disorders, etc. The body responds the exact same ways to starvation, whether it's from famine/no access to food, self-imposed, or done by another as part of bdsm (eg in dungeon "play," 24/7 d/s relationships). Wounds go through the same process of happening, healing, etc. whether done by the self, done by another, consensually, or nonconsensually. Mentally, it is processed differently, to be sure. But the concrete HARM inflicted on the body is the same.

I'm with you here. I know that from past experience of some of the things you described.

Thinking about self-harm makes me real sad. :(

Also, I realize that BDSM is an important issue.

This makes me think, D.A. Clarke once wrote: "You cannot simultaneously oppose and worship violence. . . The symbols of slavery, imprisonment, torture and death have no place in the hearts of women who plan to fight for less glamorous things like dignity, life and justice." (from the book Unleashing feminism) She put it well, I think.

Fuck! On the weekend a pipe broke in my room, resulting in mucho water. Needless to say, things got wet and blechy. It was mainly notebooks, clothes, carpet... :(

Oh, I'm sorry to hear there was a flood in your home. I hope there wasn't too much damage?

*Hugs* to you, Demonista.
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From:fierceawakening
Date:October 25th, 2008 04:56 am (UTC)

Re: Hey Demonista :)

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Someone should tell Ms. Clarke that actual torture and violence aren't "glamorous".
From:maggie_hays
Date:October 25th, 2008 04:57 pm (UTC)

Re: Hey Demonista :)

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I found T's reply in my Gmailbox:

Someone should tell Ms. Clarke that actual torture and violence aren't "glamorous".

I definitely agree that that torture and violence aren't glamorous. But I don't think that was Clarke's point. Her point was that BDSM (which is filled with symbols of slavery, imprisonment, torture and death) is often portrayed as "glamorous". I read her essays and I know what she's talking about. She does not see a difference between BDSM and "actual" torture & violence; I don't see one either: I have experienced sexual torture, believing sometimes that I would "enjoy" it; but I had been influenced by a patriarchal society into believing all the "consent" or "victim-blaming" rhetoric. But, as Demonista said, "the damage done physically has little to do with consent to the act(s)." I definitely agree with that. Also, I believe that women who are truly committed feminists simply cannot simultaneously oppose and worship violence, this is true: it's a good choice to make. But regarding women for have experienced BDSM, I would NOT judge them (they have been harmed- as I have been- "consent" does not erase the harm); I would rather put the blame on their sadist (usually male) partners, who have been brainwashed by a patriarchal pornified society that restricts sexual imagination, instead.

Anyway, I don't want to get into an argument because I will *never agree* with any patriarchal view. So, please leave me alone. I don't want to argue because of our opposing views; it's a waste of time. My message was for Demonista, not you. D- my original message is still there.

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From:demonista
Date:October 27th, 2008 09:18 pm (UTC)

Re: Hey Demonista :)

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Sorry about the unwanted commenters Maggie!

I hate how people defend this asshole. The above example is only one example. A commenter on an Ann Bartow's Max Hardcore post tild of being sexually assaulted by him. I hate how they aren't believed by the "sex-pos" crowd, eg because he wasn't "charged and convicted" for rape. WTF?!?

It's a wonderful piece Mags :D As are a lot of your other posts

Sam Berg does sound aswesome!

I'll see if anyone else wants to write the proporn rebuttal, and then we'll figure stuffs out.

Heehee! I linked to Dreamworlds 3, not Price of Pleasure ;) Altho I should've linked to it too.

I don't remember to what extent Farley has specifically dealt with physical trauma, but I see some applicability.

I think BDSM and self-harm have a hell of a lot in common. But I won't go into it in this comment. I think it'll have its own post. I sometimes self-harm, and "fake" self-harm, and I shouldn't, I know. But it has things in common with BDSM that few would admit too.

De Clarke is friggin awesome!

It's ok. It wasn't too bad

*HUGS* back
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From:leanashe
Date:October 25th, 2008 01:55 am (UTC)
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Re: The mp3 file, that's from the F-Files! I have her on my MySpace friends list, but never had the chance to listen to her. Thansk for posting!
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From:demonista
Date:October 28th, 2008 08:52 pm (UTC)
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spelcome :D
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From:ray_rae_ray
Date:October 26th, 2008 12:46 am (UTC)
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Found you through [Bad username: egalitarian sex]; thought your stories were sweet. I really have to object to this, though.

I wanna say something about physical trauma: the damage done physically has little to do with consent to the act(s). Meaning, a cut, burn, whip lash, etc does the same damage to the body whether with or without consent.

I think you're vastly overestimating the amount of physical damage that kinky sex typically involves. I enjoy BDSM and long-distance running. In long-distance running, I've dealt with cuts, scrapes, bruises, scratches, shinsplints, muscle soreness, a broken toe, and numerous twisted ankles. In BDSM, I've dealt with bruises, scratches, and that's about it. Why are radical feminists more worried about my sex life than about my involvement with potentially dangerous athletic activities?

Trauma done to the body is handled by the body in much the same way, whether consensual or not, eg endorphins, adrenaline, pain, etc.

Is this true? I thought there was a relationship between a person's pain tolerance and their perceived control over the pain. Anecdotally, I think that's true of me. I did a Google scholar search on "pain self-efficacy", and there seems to be some statistical evidence for it too (judging by a quick impressionistic scan of this, this, and this.)

I think useful parallels can be drawn between the physical trauma done in bdsm, and self-harm, eating disorders, etc. The body responds the exact same ways to starvation, whether it's from famine/no access to food, self-imposed, or done by another as part of bdsm (eg in dungeon "play," 24/7 d/s relationships).

I've never encountered anybody who starved their partner for sexual excitement. In fact, I'm not even clear on how that would work.

Mentally, it is processed differently, to be sure. But the concrete HARM inflicted on the body is the same.

Okay, but how damaging is a cut or a bruise, really, in the absence of emotional trauma? You'd think kinky people were chopping each other's arms off or something.
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From:demonista
Date:October 28th, 2008 09:06 pm (UTC)
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Of course a lot of bdsm doesn't do severe damage. But I evaluate violence and harm based on what it does to the body, mind, etc. and balance that against the good or harm to self and others it could do. for example, having an operation done to save a life is violence in a neutral sense (eg cuts open body, shoves things in, involves weeks or months of healing), but it saves your life, so is justified if the patient wants to continue their life.

exercising can cause harm, but it strengthens you, increases your health, life span, helps with vitamin and mineral uptake, reduces fat, etc. so the benefits outweigh the risks. however, obsessive exercise, esp if accompanied by disordered eating, actually doesn't do these positive things, eg too much weight loss, vitamin deficiency, etc so it's too harmful to justify.

consensual bdsm (what of noncon? edgeplay) does both harm and good. the body is hurt, but the mind usually enjoys, and part of the body feels pleasure and potentially orgasm. BUT it is an eroticism based on harm, inequality, violence, sexism, racism, homophobia, etc--they very things that have hurt people for millenia. it legitimises perpetuating, or at the very least makes a mockery of, the suffering of countless people for your jollies. how could slave play exist if slavery didn't? how could age-play/daddy-daughter exist if incestous rape didn't? how could race-play exist if racism didn't? hint: the answer is they couldn't.
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From:demonista
Date:October 28th, 2008 09:07 pm (UTC)

part 2

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also, i said this in response to renev:

I think there is something to be said for the fact that, on the surface, bdsm and noncon abuse look the same. In viewing these images, we are being told by pro-porners and pro-bdsmers to make valuative judgements on these materials, to declare some images and occurences bad and others good when they LOOK like the same damn thing. We are told, for example, to shut off our empathy when the abuse is sexualised and whacked off too by others, and not ask ourselves how we would feel in that position of being harmed, or what kind of person would hurt another in such a way, and to just declare it kinky fun, and therefore off limits to critique.

Oh, I know that a "light" flogging (eg no gash wounds, severe bleeding) and 3rd degree burns are by no means the same thing. What I was saying was that whipping that leaves moderate cuts is equal to whipping that leaves moderate cuts, whether there is consent or not. I wasn't drawing parallels between a near death experience and what is not. For example, one could only safely consider a third degree burn from fire to be the same as a third degree burn from fire, if the length it lasted were the same. Mentally, if it was consensual, it would be interpreted by the mind differently, but the DAMAGE to the BODY is the same--the physical trauma, whether there is consent or not.
From:miz_evolution
Date:October 28th, 2008 12:04 am (UTC)
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D- you have the right to say and write whatever you want, and yep, I'll even defend that...which I think you know by now...but I have to ask, wrt to TPoP (and yep, please do say whatever you want to about it), seeing as the film is made, promoted by, and heavily features (count the air time difference) anti-porn people, can it really, truly be considered fair and truthful and unbiased? I mean, if me and a group of porn people decided to make a film about the anti-porn movement, and claimed that it was fair and unbiased...would you automatically believe that it was?

And yeah, it does get old for people in porn and into BDSM- who are not monsters or horrible people or any other such thing- to sit around and hear how they are, or how they could not actually choose to do what they do.

And lastly, I do have to say this: If there is one thing I know for certain, both the biological reaction and emotional reaction to consentually getting flogged in BDSM activities and getting unconsentually burned are totally, completely, and utterly different. Pretending and suggesting otherwise really, really angers the hell out of me, as someone who has experienced both.
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From:demonista
Date:October 28th, 2008 08:50 pm (UTC)
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I actually agree with you here, for the most part. I think POP made a big mistake in calling themselves unbiased. I'll fully admit that the film is. I also thought the production quality would have been better. I also think they made a mistake in not actually dealing with features, like Candida Royalle and Adam & Eve, and femdom. I think they should have because some of the barriers between gonzo and feature either were never really there or are breaking down, eg serial penetration in features. Much the same product is consumed--I've looked at 3 of Adam & Eve's mail order catalogues, and been on the site, and seen parts of probably a dozen feautures, that are shown on CityTV in Canada, and it's much the same crap. For example, several of the TV features had men calling women cunts and whores, men slapping women and pulling their hair, plotlines that played into the "evil slut" myth--eg women who lie, kill, seduce their way through life, etc. Although I would definitely agree that features contain less overt misogyny, and sometimes contain positive messages. I remember seeing one, I think it was called Sex Spa (I've don't really know), that had the main female character cheating on her hubby with this "good guy" (as in, i thought he was a decent character) and the other man brought her to orgasm orally, then with intercourse, then manually after he had orgasmed, because she wasn't "done" ;) Although that is the best scene I've seen in porn, and is hardly representative, and the film had some "roll eyes" and "$^(&$!" scenes it did focus on female pleasure and orgasm outside of teh holy penis, showed assertiveness (without going into femdom or such), etc. If a film has a scene that has me go "that was pretty decent," that's a pretty huge accomplishment. re: femdom: don't get me started on how sub men are feminised, how strap ons are associated with dominance, etc.

I think there is something to be said for the fact that, on the surface, bdsm and noncon abuse look the same. In viewing these images, we are being told by pro-porners and pro-bdsmers to make valuative judgements on these materials, to declare some images and occurences bad and others good when they LOOK like the same damn thing. We are told, for example, to shut off our empathy when the abuse is sexualised and whacked off too by others, and not ask ourselves how we would feel in that position of being harmed, or what kind of person would hurt another in such a way, and to just declare it kinky fun, and therefore off limits to critique.

Oh, I know that a "light" flogging (eg no gash wounds, severe bleeding) and 3rd degree burns are by no means the same thing. What I was saying was that whipping that leaves moderate cuts is equal to whipping that leaves moderate cuts, whether there is consent or not. I wasn't drawing parallels between a near death experience and what is not. For example, one could only safely consider a third degree burn from fire to be the same as a third degree burn from fire, if the length it lasted were the same. Mentally, if it was consensual, it would be interpreted by the mind differently, but the DAMAGE to the BODY is the same--the physical trauma, whether there is consent or not.
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From:cariad_me_home
Date:October 28th, 2008 01:19 am (UTC)
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you might want to ask victims of trauma/violence/torture, if theythink its the same thing. I'm betting most of them would say it wasnt
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From:demonista
Date:October 28th, 2008 08:52 pm (UTC)
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As if I've never been abused, let alone other anti-bdsmers and antiporners. Nice assumption. Here's a clue: most of us have.

It's not the same thing. I'll copy and paste what I said to renev:

I think there is something to be said for the fact that, on the surface, bdsm and noncon abuse look the same. In viewing these images, we are being told by pro-porners and pro-bdsmers to make valuative judgements on these materials, to declare some images and occurences bad and others good when they LOOK like the same damn thing. We are told, for example, to shut off our empathy when the abuse is sexualised and whacked off too by others, and not ask ourselves how we would feel in that position of being harmed, or what kind of person would hurt another in such a way, and to just declare it kinky fun, and therefore off limits to critique.

Oh, I know that a "light" flogging (eg no gash wounds, severe bleeding) and 3rd degree burns are by no means the same thing. What I was saying was that whipping that leaves moderate cuts is equal to whipping that leaves moderate cuts, whether there is consent or not. I wasn't drawing parallels between a near death experience and what is not. For example, one could only safely consider a third degree burn from fire to be the same as a third degree burn from fire, if the length it lasted were the same. Mentally, if it was consensual, it would be interpreted by the mind differently, but the DAMAGE to the BODY is the same--the physical trauma, whether there is consent or not.
From:laurelinrain
Date:October 28th, 2008 11:59 pm (UTC)
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I think you owe everyone on this thread an apology for making such a remark.
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From:ohh_anxiety
Date:October 29th, 2008 03:22 pm (UTC)
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hi, I was looking at profiles of people in the various feminist comms, and saw yours. I was a little confronted by your view on pornography, and I made the assumption (feel free to correct it) that that view extends to sex work and stripping. ...so it was super super strange that you listed (ex and totally posi stripper) kathleen hanna as one of your favourite people. just commenting, its okay if this is off topic and you want to delete.
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From:leanashe
Date:October 30th, 2008 12:06 am (UTC)
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You know D, I know your blog is public and on the Internet for all to see, but it's not as if you're posting these threads to a public group that these people belong to!

It's as if you were having a conversation with a friend, but in a public place. Would that give any shmo who disagrees with you the right to interrupt, just because they can hear you?

Seriously, WTH?
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From:demonista
Date:October 30th, 2008 12:10 am (UTC)
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I know, robyn! I didn't see any invite for debate from pro-bdsmers and pro-porners, did you? for people who are so big on consent, they don't feel any compunction about nonconsensually inviting and forcing themselves into my blog!
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From:_allecto_
Date:November 4th, 2008 01:02 am (UTC)
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Sorry, Demonista, just catching up on your blog now. Is the Price of Pleasure a documentary? I haven't seen it. I'm assuming it is against the sex/rape industry? And who is arguing against the documentary? Did you want writing to post onto your blog? Sorry for all the questions, I'm just not sure what you're asking. :)
From:(Anonymous)
Date:November 4th, 2008 04:44 am (UTC)
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http://www.mediaed.org/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=235&template=PDGCommTemplates/HTN/Item_Preview.html
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From:demonista
Date:November 10th, 2008 04:23 am (UTC)
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see the anonymous link given for the doc (http://www.mediaed.org/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=235&template=PDGCommTemplates/HTN/Item_Preview.html). and a lot of pro-porners are, inc ernest greene.
From:(Anonymous)
Date:November 5th, 2008 10:02 pm (UTC)
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Kind of off-topic, but have you ever thought about submitting an article to Shameless magazine? I think a radical feminist perspective might be nice.

-citywood
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From:demonista
Date:November 10th, 2008 04:22 am (UTC)
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thanks! are they looking for essays on anything in particular?
(no subject) - (Anonymous) - Expand
From:witchywoo22
Date:November 15th, 2008 02:03 am (UTC)
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The radical feminist perspective is never percieved as "nice". Unfortunately.

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